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kaptain
Toad !


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 123
Location: Omaha

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem w/ the heavy boat is that not every pair will both be willing to throw down to the pot... but i think we already discussed that option. I do like the option though...if it could be reliable that partners all get in..

I kinda do like some sort of change to the calcutta payouts...but not too much... I like first and second getting paid for sure...perhaps do something else with the 3rd place amt since it is usually the entry fee back and nothing more. Maybe draw at the meeting prior that "such and such place get's the final payout ...and have all spots from 3rd on down in the hat...draw one...and for example... 10th place get's the final payout place at browns...mix it up a bit...

I do seem to think it works fine as we have it now too.
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Bigroostertail
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 520
Location: Moose, Stump Patch, Eastern IA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Big stringer as a team? Reply with quote

Not looking to make a lot of work out of this topic. Like kaptain said our current deal works fine now.

I ain't saying it doesn't work. It works great for three guys. The guys who finish in First, second and third place.

What about guys like me, who finish in last place most of the time? Confused

I am just thinking that if we can come up with the right idea, we should maybe try something diffrent to give this a little different shine.. See how it works. If it don't work we can all ways go back to first, second, third.

Start the Discussion of the Heavy boat idea.
I know we have talked about it some in conversation in the past. I know I never gave the topic my full attention. My recollecton of the conversation is unclear.

This Heavy Boat thing is just ONE idea. Ain't saying good or bad. But if applied correctlly I think it adds some shine.

I think most would be willing or more inclined to pot up the $10.00 as a team for Heavy Boat vs $5.00 as an individule for Big stringer. Given the winnings are spilt 50/50 between team mates.

This format [b]MAY[/b] bring with it a positve change of attitude on the water between boaters and non- boaters as partners??? Like Shadmaster said It might incourage the Shareing of more information, locations, baits, technique, what ever. It would bond partners as a team.

We don't fish for money here in the small Boat Bass Club! No one is looking to get over on anyone else!

We fish for fun and fame. The title of : MR BASS!!!

This would still be voluntary. If for what ever reason one member of the team just did not want to pot up then that team would not have to get in.
If one team mate was out and the other wanted to double pot then so be it, being understood that the winnings for that place belonged to the potie... (Legal stuff)

On a $100.00 pot for example, placing would pay for a fair share of the fuel cost for 3 heavy boat teams or 6 people rather then just cashing out to three singles.

Heavy boat 1=50% 2=30% 3 = 20%..
Or 1=40%, 2 = 35%, 3= 25%..
Or???
Not making procedure here, just conversation.. What do you guys think about this Idea? Or does anyone have other ideas. If this coversation gets to big I can create another area here on the forum for this ...[b][/b]
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Hawghunter
Toad !


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 150
Location: Krum, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone fishes these events for the money, if they do they are doing it for the wrong reason. But I guess when something like this is brought up my first question is always is it broken? This is an optional deal, some never take part in the optional $$$ part, others always do, most do it by feel. If they feel like they can cash either because of who they are fishing with, the lake they are on or because of pre-fishing, they get in.

But what do the numbers tell us? I went back the last 4 years and here is what I found.

In 2007, 138 anglers fished in 7 events. 81 (58.70%) participated in the $5 Calcutta pot, 99 (71.74%) in the $5 Big Bass pot.
In 2006, 143 anglers fished, 96 (67.13%) participated in the Calcutta pot, 102 (73.91%) in the Big Bass pot.
In 2005, 147 anglers fished, 103 (70.07%) participated in the Calcutta pot, 108 (73.47%) in the Big Bass Pot.
In 2004, 172 anglers fished, 97 (56.40%) participated in the Calcutta pot, 102 (59.30%) in the Big Bass Pot.
The 4 year total is 600 anglers in 28 events, 377 (62.83%) participated in the Calcutta pot, 411 (66.67%) in the Big Bass Pot.

In these 4 years we never had an event where more paid in towards the Calcutta than paid in towards Big Bass. Most events there was more in the Big Bass pot than in the Calcutta pot. Why?

Two reasons that I can think of. Biggest reason, more bang for your buck. Pay in $5, the average Big Bass payout (411 (total # of entries) / 28 (# of events) * 5 (Big Bass entry fee) is $73.39 in the last 4 years. Average payout for 1st place in Calcutta (377 / 28 * 5 * .5 (50% of the pot)) is $33.66. Big difference. 2nd reason, Big Bass is one fish, one cast, pretty even money across the field who is going to win the cash. It is more of a randem deal. Another stat I looked up, The actual Big Bass of the tournament took home the Big Bass pot in 19 of the 28 events the last 4 years (67.86% of the time). That percentage is strangly close to the percentage of those that enterred the Big Bass pool. Tells you that Big Bass money is pretty much a crap shoot.

To me the Big Bass deal isn't broken. I like 100% payout to 1 winner. When you happen to win one of these pots it is a good payout. Also matches what pretty much everyone else is doing. Matches our awards structure as well (1 Big Bass winner at each event (vs 3 for placing), 1 overall Big Bass winner per year (vs the top 10 for overall points).

As for the Calcutta, the numbers are down only about 5% VS Big Bass. 34 participants in the last 28 events chose to get into the Big Bass pot only. That is just over 1 per event, which to me is pretty good. It wouldn't have surprised me to see a bigger gap in the 2 totals. Last year the gap was pretty large, probably because Captain was winning every month (lol). So I guess I don't think the Calcutta is broken either.

But just for arguments sake, lets look at the two proposed changes to the Calcutta payout.

First up, paying 1st place around 50%, 2nd around 30%, then a randem position the final 20%. The last 4 years the average event has between 13 and 14 paid Calucutta entries per event. Call it 14 for our comparison. So that is $70 in the Calcutta pot on average. So the payout is $35 for 1st, $20 for 2nd, $15 for 3rd. I don't think it would help or hurt the payout to move where that 3rd place money goes. If it is 3rd or 10th, don't think it matters. I would say it should go to someone who at least caught a fish though (lol).

The other proposal, payout to a boat total instead of an individual total.

The average event the last 4 years has had between 21 and 22 anglers fishing. Call it 22 for an even number. So 11 boats. The Calcutta participation is around 62%, so about 14 per event (as noted above) or 7 boats. Will go 1 better and say we average 8 boats out of the 11 (that is a 72.73% participation clip, better than any year in this study). So you get 8 boats at $10 a boat, $80 in the pot. Payout is $40 for 1st, $25 for 2nd, $15 for 3rd at the 50-30-20 breakout. Divide that by 2 in the boat, you get $20 per angler for 1st, $12.50 per angler for 2nd and $7.50 per angler for 3rd. Those payouts are based on increasing the participation percentage. I am not sure that would happen based on the payouts. Might initially, but I don't think it would hold for long.

That is just the financial side of it. Then you have the added 'team' pressure. The pressure and the way you look at the day changes a great deal when you are a team VS an individual. There is more pressure as a team member than an individual. Now you are letting someone else down if you don't catch fish. If you are picking your partner that is one thing, in a draw format it is another. I have handed my rod to my non-boater more than once and backed the boat down the bank or quit fishing altogether. Don't think that is pressure on the non-boater when you are just fishing, let alone fishing as a team? I guess my feeling is using a boat total brings in an entire new set of issues for the Club. I tried to explain this the last time this was brought up, can bring in examples again if you want me to. To me the team approach on paper sounds good, but if you think about how it affects everyone on the water, I think it changes things. Some for the positive, but mainly for the negative with what we are discussing here. This is a Club event, not a Team money event where you pick your partner. There is some stress in a Team event when your partner is picking up fish and you are not helping. It is not always perceived that way by the guy that is catching fish, but it is by the one that is not more times than not. I have been on both sides of that. It is a different kind of pressure in a Team deal than when you are only fishing for your own position in an event.

That may just be my opinion though. I would say that if you wanted to see how the Club reacts to this, the Calcutta pot is probably the safest way to do that. You will be able to tell by the numbers. I would throw in my $5 in every event just because that is what I do. But I am not sure once the newness wore off and the payouts were given out a few times, that the excitement would last very long and participation dropped eventually to nothing. But you never know if you don't ask. I am not saying it won't work, but my logic is telling me eventually the Calutta piece of this will drop off and it will add pressure to catch fish in both sides of the boat.
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Hawghunter
Toad !


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 150
Location: Krum, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I was the Club accountant Shocked . I think the theory is that if only 1 in the boat wanted to get in that he could pay $10 for the boat. If that boat cashed, the winnings would be his alone, he wouldn't have to share. On the flip side though, still not sure how this works if we end up with an unpaired boater?
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kaptain
Toad !


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 123
Location: Omaha

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paired or unpaired...pay per boat would probably have to be the same...

Interesting analysis overall...a way to boost the payouts and make them more attractive would be to increase the entry fee to 20 bucks per boat...but combining that with 5 bucks each for BB...I would guess that additional fees would bring less participation which is against what we are trying to accomplish... I do like the idea of the team thing...but perhaps that is more suited to a true money tournament... I can think of times where a boater may be frustrated over a non-boater not catching fish or vice versa... "if kaptain quit losing so many fish, we coulda won the pot..." if we keep it individual and as is....typically there'd be only one person to blame...unless that daggum boater front ends me all day, lol. We can see what the overall club would like to do also...i'm sure there are plenty of good ideas for a change of some sort or other minor tweaks...

If i had to pick one thing to change...it would be to increase participation...but that is not necessarily realistic as it comes down to who does or doesn't want to throw down another 10 bucks...which can add to an already expensive weekend (depending on how much beer you drank) Cool
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Hawghunter
Toad !


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 150
Location: Krum, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was more talking about the fish point total. Would an unpaired boater get to count 10 fish? Get to take his fish points X 1.5? Or not be allowed to participate? I don't think that happens all that often, but should be discussed if the conversation continues.
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basscatter
Toad !


Joined: 19 Aug 2007
Posts: 189
Location: Omaha

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the plan I brought up was 5 fish total for the boat with 100% payout to the team!!!


mark
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campfire
Short !
Short !


Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Prentis, Omaha

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HEY MOOSE!! WHATS UP WITH CUTTING ME OFF AND THROWING BUZZBAITS AT 3 MILE?
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Leadpipe
Bucket Mouth


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 459
Location: Omaha,Ne

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the premiss of "Heavy boat" is to create a "Team" atmosphear in the boat, I might have some additional input.
I reviewed the results of the last two years, and tracked the results of fish "Scored" by each boater, compaired to the non-boater in each tournament. The results were pretty interesting, Not at all what I had expected. It showed that the non-boater results were comprabable to the boaters score in almost every event. It shows that if the boater was catching fish, so was the back seater. In some cases the back seater out preformed the driver, and that went for the year end totals too. Dave gave me the cards for the last 4 years, but after tracking 2 years it was plane to see that there is Not a problem of each player not sharing in the fish catching. If one member (front or back) is catching fish, so will the other member.
From a personal standpoint, I've always had my boater show a effort to get me on fish, if they had figured out a pattern. (Rod gave me his rod &reel at Boji) (Ken Toms raced across a lake to get me to fill my card at the last min.) (Dave Anderson backed up a tree laded bay so I could make a shot at a laydown)
I don't know of anyone that I've fished with that has'nt made an effort to let me catch fish. Even Dan P. Laughing I will know more if I draw Shad master.
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Bigroostertail
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 520
Location: Moose, Stump Patch, Eastern IA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Campfire ! Reply with quote

After the butt kicking you gave us last season, it Sounds like a winning strategy to me!! The only thing I don't know is if my big old tub of a boat can keep up with you.. Really worried about trying to get as shallow as you get, get my tub beached....You would throw a line and pull me off wouldn't ya? Razz I might try it at Mozingo some also....
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shad master
Bucket Mouth


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 392
Location: Utley, Omaha, NE

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I will know more if I draw Shad master". You may want to check with Nick R - won the non-boater division of the Calcutta Series from the back of the Shad Boat - while I finished way down the pack - Wink
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Leadpipe
Bucket Mouth


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 459
Location: Omaha,Ne

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...thats exactly what I ment. Very Happy
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Hawghunter
Toad !


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 150
Location: Krum, TX

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 months ago we were still fishing, seems like 3 years ago. Don't care where, just need to get out soon.. Evil or Very Mad ..I posted the sunrise times for the 7 events this coming year. Wish it was the first of April this week instead of the first of February, but what are you going to do. A trip to Bass Pro and Cabelas might be in the works this week Idea . Guess that will have to do for now. It you can't fish, you can at least dream... Rolling Eyes
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